Preamble:
9 - An Alternative Solution to current JEE
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An alternative Proposal to Save IITs and JEE
Please take the time to read this and revert with your comments
An alternative Proposal to Save IITs and JEE
Basically scrap B Tech degree and have only Dual M Tech Degree and use On Line JEE to select candidates.
The assumption is that the idea of a Dual M Tech Degree could force those not interested in B Tech but just an IIT Tag to drop out of the race.
Better quality M Techs means scope for better research in IITs
Over all it is a Win Win Situation.
Rambo - IITM
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8th July 2012
Dear Members, please read all responses received so far.
Where do we go from here ?
Rambo
Where do we go from here ?
Rambo
8th July 2012
Comments received on Alternative Proposal - (Names of Authors withheld so we debate the point and not the author, However authors will remember their comments).
Comment No: 1:
An excellent compilation of the issues: and a recommendation, as well.
From the PoV of an essay, I think some amount of rewriting is needed towards the end, to sharpen it. The discussion in the earlier half reads as more focused. This is especially important as the recommendation only emerges towards the end.
The IIM board was also harassed in the early 90s in a similar fashion, again by Joshi. At the time I had argued for a similar examination solution, and I pushed this via Vindi Banga, who was my classmate in IIT-D and on the board of IIMA at that time. As you know such solutions do not find favour, possibly because they close the doors to any chance of interference at any level. However, in this case, you have also argued for removal of the B-Tech degree from IITs, and it is a suggestion of breathtaking scope.
I think, as an argument, it needs an equally audacious strategic approach in order to be taken on board, and cannot be left to a blogpost in the hope that it be read by sensible people who might be in a position to recommend it. What precisely this might be, I am afraid I don't know, but hopefully in the coming days you will find good ideas bubbling up from the group of people with whom you have also shared it.
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Comment No 2:
Looking at the current state while ignoring the last 700 years is insufficient, for the simple reason that one cannot make God decisions in a fog. Perhaps that is why Nehru tried to capture the country in a single document and called it the Discovery of India. It is also true that his access to knowledge was very limited at the time and his work suffers in retrospect – at the time, it was enlightening.
I mention Nehru because we cannot doubt that he was among the visionaries who saw the need to ensure a bank of highly committed change agents with the necessary skills to get their hands dirty and build that change.
We cannot, also, doubt that rather than creating that collegium of skills, the IITs ended up being fantastic educational institutions instead, delivering, for a while, superbly educated people. Unfortunately, there really wasn't much of a demand for such people in the narrow confines of the tiny private sector and the ambitious public sector that was created to put the basic technical infrastructure in place for a modern industrial nation.
Imho, that is why the concept got diluted, why so many modern IIT graduates (the issue got very serious in the 1980s, and your personal story is a pointer to why it got so bad) could not get any sense of personal satisfaction (it is a very narrow viewpoint to think that money was the sole decider) from working in India, on the one hand, and working as engineers, on the other. Today's graduates are a notch even lower, in that the educational standard in the IITs has dropped precipitately, hence our expectations must also be adjusted accordingly.
The veritable collapse of JEE is imho very much tied into all this. My very broad viewpoint right now is that Mr Sibal is an ordinary politician, much like MM Joshi, and is incapable of making decisions in the larger interests of the country, the hallmark of a statesman. In any case, history shows us that statesmen are few and far between, so this is not a very damning indictment.
Personally, I think your radical solution deserves much more serious examination than the sketchy 'new JEE' idiocy, whose sole benefit appears to be destroying the coaching class menace, as though cutting off the blood supply to a tumour can even be imagined as a cure for the underlying cancer that caused the tumour.
The trouble is that the alumni community today is mostly disinterested, and the interested ones are fragmented.
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Comment No 3 :
Sorry Ram, I can't agree with this. There is a role for just a BTech. Not all BTechs should be MTechs or on an MTech path.
My Response:
I am glad you dont agree for you can tell me what better options IITs of Today Have.
If we dont do anything and HRD goes ahead with this common entrance exam, we will have a situation where IITs will get students who are worse off than present. Students who would have attended coaching schools to get top ranks in school exams, and attended coaching schools to clear JEE Mains and coaching schools to clear JEE Advanced.
I want you to do something, forget your education, forget who you are for a moment.
Think that you are an above average student in a govt corporation school in rural India and you have read all about IITs and IITians ( like you and I dreamed of studying in MIT or Harvard or Oxford when we were in school)
Suggest as a student what would be a very fair system for the poor and the rich. I am eager to hear what you say.
We did a five year B Tech from IITs in the 60's and 70's. Now all we are doing is calling the same 5 year B Tech Degree an M.Tech Degree.
Remember this is only for the original five iits. The remaining new ten can give B tech Degrees.
The Idea is to make the first five IITs Research hubs and for that you need good quality students.
From word go students know that if they want to study in the top five IITs, then they have to be truly interested in engineering technology or business management.
Would you consider the solution on offer if I include that after 3 years students can leave getting IITs a D.Tech Degree. ( Diploma in Technology)
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You asked for my solution. Here it is:
1. Spend resources to improve education in schools so that those with fewer resources have access to good school education.
2. Insist that coaching classes have some significant percentage of students on reduced or no fee, depending on income.
3. Retain JEE.
Now, to your proposal. I don't see how doing an MTech changes the basic question of admission. And, I don't see why students can't do just a BTech (not Diploma).
Thanks.
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My Response:
1. Spend resources to improve education in schools so that those with fewer resources have access to good school education.
This is a national policy not a JEE solution
2. Insist that coaching classes have some significant percentage of students on reduced or no fee, depending on income.
On what Basis can GOI for the private sector to accept anything like this. Surely it cannot be legislated.
3. Retain JEE.
Yes in my proposal JEE is retained
Now, to your proposal. I don't see how doing an MTech changes the basic question of admission. And, I don't see why students can't do just a BTech (not Diploma).
This suggests that you have missed the point totally.
By Having only dual degree leading to an M Tech:
- we get rid of applicants not interested in Engineering but just want a B Tech Degree and an IIT Brand. This was not a problem in our times but is a mega problem in India today. Some greedy parents see it as an investment to send sons to JEE Coaching schools. In Hyderabad the Going rate for dowry for an IIT B Tech is 3 crores Plus…
- We use the JEE to select best students for M.Tech degree. Currently B Techs are not interested in M tech nor are the top NIT BE's. So who applies for M tech, the left overs who cannot get decent jobs. These M Tech students don't command anything in the industry. No one even recruits them through campus interviews. All this will change and we will have top students all groomed to do their PhDs, which is what HRD wants to change IITs into Research hubs. Today IITs rank over 300 in Global Rankings based on quality of research.
- We still have ten IITs left to give out B Techs. In a way it is good for the new IITs as they will not have to compete with the fully established original 5 IITs. Even IITR and IITG are struggling as the graduate are rated well below top 5 iits.
Okay; thanks Ram.
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Comment No: 4
Dear Ram
Appreciate very much your continually pursuing the IITs admissions matter. However, I do not agree with your proposal stated in the enclosed mail.
If at all IITs need to discontinue then it is all the two years' masters programmes including M.Tech., MBA, etc. Making all programmes as masters would make it non-attractive and wastage of time. Why should someone who basically wishes to be just a good engineer spend five years when it can be achieved in four years.
I agree that presently those who come for M.Tech basically come for four reasons - IIT tag which helps them in career as well as in marriage, handsome stipend which they receive which is often more than what they would have got in regular job with their pre-IIT qualification, cheap accommodation (hostel) to stay for preparation for competitive exams and access to good library for the competitive exams.
IITs should basically remain B.Tech. institutes with facility of M.Tech. available only for those who also register for Ph.D. So I am suggesting that we should have B.Tech. as stand alone degree and dual degree system should be for M.Tech & Ph.D. which will remove the extensive misuse of M.Tech.
Thanks and best regards
My Response:
Brilliant Suggestion to scrap M Tech totally. I agree IITs are wasting their Time trying to reeducate BEs from Non IIT Institutions with weak foundation. Plus I agree GoI should scrap stipend for M.Tech Students.
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Comment No: 5
Went through it. I disagree with the details of the background material at places, but that is not important.
In terms of the proposal, my first reaction is that it is very nice.
Asking all 5 oldest IITs to only offer dual-degree (hopefully with BTech becoming an exit option for less meritorious) does make sense. But I suspect that most Senates are enamoured with BTechs, and would doubt if the proposal will be accepted.
My Comments:
I did put a disclaimer in the very beginning to say this is my opinion
from what I have heard, as I knew many would disagree, including my own
classmates who are Faculty members at IITM. After all I had zero
connection with IITs from 1976 to 2000. So my information may be tainted.
Would appreciate it if you could tell me where I am wrong so I can rewrite
the bits.
But as you say it is not important, yet important enough to yield and
evolve a solution.
Trust me when I heard from Kannan suggesting we should scrap B Tech, I
reacted violently too and I argued that scrap B Tech then IIT will lose
all credibility for ever.
Kannan however just wanted to scrap B Tech but make it all M Tech using BE
from other Universities. In my opinion this is where IITs have failed with
PG Courses as the B.Techs don't do M Techs ( may be a few exceptions but
not necessarily the top students) Even top graduates from Nits and state
colleges go overseas and take up jobs. Which means the ones trying to do M.Techs at IITs are second grade generally.
With Kannan saying scrap B Techs and Kapil Sibal saying IITs have to
become research hubs I believe the latter was possible if we accepted
Kannans idea to scrap B Techs. Then I was wondering what happens to JEE.
It suddenly clicked that we could solve all three problems by scrapping B
Tech and using JEE to pick students for dual degree.
Any good faculty member will agree that they can succeed in research if
they get better students.
Enamoured by B.Techs yes, I am sure if they think this through, instead of
a five year B tech they will now be giving out five year M Techs. Looks
at the number of M Techs five IITs can produce in a year. I am assuming
right now each IIT has 500 B Techs and 300 M Techs. So we can have 800 M.Techs a year per IIT x 5 = 4000 M Techs.
I am also thinking that HRD can make it compulsory for these M Techs to
teach for a year as part of National service ( to be debated).
By introducing all these factors I am hoping only students with aptitude
for engineering will even bother sitting for JEE. If 5 Lakh demand drops
to 50,000 we could go back to the written exam for JEE restoring old
glorious days
It will be up to faculty to identify students with research potential and
groom them to do Ph Ds.
I was here is Sydney doing my masters in Building Sciences. The original
idea was to specialise in Tropical Architecture as well as design for
nuclear fall out. In the first semester I did Building Acoustics-I as one
of the subjects ( I always loved physics but hated chemistry) and scored a
high distinction effortlessly. So I also enrolled for Acoustics-II which
was more about Industrial & Traffic Noise control and designs..
Before the course even warmed up my Prof asked if we could have a beer
together one day. He said he believed I should do my Masters thesis on
Acoustics and not Tropical Architecture and he also said he would get me a
nice research grant to do my PhD. Which he did..
I was forced to abandon my PhD half way through my thesis because of job
pressure. My employer offered me one day off a week to complete my thesis,
but it did not work out.
Also as it stands Faculty in IITs do not bother bonding with B Tech
students as most would leave any way. If you had M Techs only at Top five
IITs there is scope for much better student faculty relationship.
Initially the proposal will not be accepted as it would come as a
shock..to most With time I am sure more and more people will like it.
I have three feed backs saying it is a Brilliant Idea and you too have
said you like it.
It is a question of patiently explaining to the nation the benefits of 5
IITs giving only dual degrees.
We still have 10 other IITs that can give B Techs and this will also allow
them to get the IIT Brand quicker as they will not be competing with the 5
original Iits..
One more thing we could do is at the end of the third year we should give
any one who wants to leave a D.Tech. ( Diploma in Technology) Why drag
disinterested kids into doing Civil Engg Metallurgy aero etc ??
If say 20% leave then these seats can be offered to students from
remaining IITs who are interested in research.
I am sorry if I am rambling on. You are very close to the JEE problem and
if I was able to half please you with my half cocked proposal, I am sure
when the proposal gets polished up we will have more takers.
I must confess that I was in a rush to complete it quickly considering IAC
will be meeting soon. With time I will bring all of you
together under one umbrella so we can all remould the design and put it
forward to all IIT senates for consideration.
Thank you for reading through
Cheers
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I am in agreement with the proposal, and you don't have to convince me. I am only concerned about its implementation possibility.
At IIT Kanpur, we do a 10-year review of all things under-graduate. In the last review a couple of years ago, one of the major points of discussion was the dual-degree program. Most faculty did not think that locking a 12th class student into a 5-year program was fair, when s/he does not even understand what are different disciplines of engineering. It was clear during the discussions that a system where we offer both 4-year program, and 5-year program in the same discipline through a quota system (so many seats in this program and so many seats in that program) was not acceptable to most faculty members.
Two alternatives were suggested and debated. One was to admit everyone into a 5-year program, with the 4-year program being an exit option for those who lose interest or are unable to perform well. (And all potential stake holders including companies that come for placement being told that 4-year program is an exit option.)
The other alternative was to admit everyone into a 4-year program, and give them an option in the 3rd year to migrate to 5-year program, if they so desire.
I would have preferred the first option, but the vast majority chose the latter.
I have also been suggesting that we make 5-year program so attractive that it effectively results in most good students to migrate to 5-year dual-degree option. For example, right now, we offer assistantship only for the last 3 semesters. Can we make it for 4 semesters. Can we make sure that only dual-degree students are hired on research projects and not those who have decided not to do research. And so on. But, again, these are not accepted, and I sense that people really do not want to do anything that pitches "BTech" as a lesser program than Dual-degree.
So, while I am all for it, I do not know where to start.
Of course, if magically, all 5 older IITs coordinate amongst themselves
and start doing this simultaneously, a lot of opposition is likely to go
away. But how do we manage this.
My Response:
If you agree then we are gong to move forward and you have a wealth of
inside knowledge. As for timing and acceptance etc, who knows only time will tell.
Jab Jab Jo Jo hona hai
Thab thab so so hoga
Hoga hi sahi.
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Comment No : 6
I am in agreement with dropping the B.Tech. program, but this
may not be easy to accomplish - giving up the flagship (because we now
want a different flagship). It will need broader consensus within the
faculty community.
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Comment No: 7
I support your proposed solution because:
Types of students in IITs:
Ideal IIT students : There are always some students in both the above categories who take interest in engineering, perform well in academics, take good projects because they are interested in engineering, and in later lives either go for MS, PhD or serve as engineer (yes they are satisfied and happy with job…. why to go for MS, PhD or research.. it is not compulsory presently). Even the students from second category may develop interest in engineering and they do the way mentioned.
But problem is created by those who loose their interest in engineering (non ideals). Now let us see why students loose interest in engineering later in IITs.
· First Category: First taking the case of interested students. They come into IIT and see the standard of engineering for which the hindi proverb fits well “naam bade aur darshan khote”. They compare IITs with MIT, Caltech and the world’s best, they compare the education and achievements of those with IIT’s and feel cheated. And then the first year of IIT education, the treatment from professors and failure in their own expectations tells them…. “Cmmon this is not the engineering which I wanted to do…. I am tired of this, let me try something else”.
Now this something else is also of two kinds:
· First kind: Either they continue with their studies without any interest. Their minds engaged in performing well in studies and their hearts somewhere else, in order to become engineers who have good GPA and thus get high paying job (money money…) but are technically poor. Yes, they now start considering IIT degree as only a road to get a high paying job and they are most likely to go in MBA,Finance, etc later in life.
· Second kind : The other something else results in the form of students doing nothing, taking no interest in their studies (even if they know that their good GPA will get them good salary) These uninterested students give poor results, they fail and they plan something else for themselves, which they would do after their B.Tech. (this may be MBA, etc) But for now they have only one thing in mind “bas jaise taise ye B.Tech. puri ho jaye fir kuch alag hi karenge”
· Second category : Those who could not develop their interest in engineering just consider IIT degree as a good way to secure their lives (high paying job, money money…….) so that they can take the risk of doing something else in later lives. Some still uninterested and undecided just go the way of second kind of first category discussed above.
In all the above cases where either a student takes interest or not, performs well or poor in academics, we are left with a very small percentage of students who take it the way it is desired. We see no technical development through the years, students come and go and the story continues. And the ideal IIT students are very few and their percentage is decreasing every year.
This is because :
(1) More options for an IIT graduate, like all kind of companies come to recruit students irrespective of their branch. (Like IT companies picking Metallurgy and Chemical engineers) This is good for the students but bad for IITs.
(2) The IIT system, education, professors (majority not all), administration is 3rd grade, highly discouraging the engineering mentality of students, is not able to take out the engineering potential of a student or it stands weak against the other factor discussed above (more options)
In such situation, it was necessary to first decide what is actually desired from the IITs. Since the govt. has now decided and wants to develop IITs into research hubs, IITs shedding the B.Tech degree and only awarding a dual degree M.Tech. will be a move that may result into positive solutions as an M.Tech.
Metallurgy is less likely to be hired by an IT company. Moreover, the student would take more interest as now he will get a specialized Master’s degree. This is good for IITs but bad for students (but why care because there would always be some students who would like to do a dual degree M.Tech. from IIT)
Even if this solution may not give positive results (let us assume for once) but it’s definitely not going to do anything negative for IITs. Therefore I totally support this solution.
My Response:
In a Nut shell you are saying exactly what I have in mind. You are saying let us not have the same number of students in every branch. Instead let us double the capacity say for electonics or computer engineering or Bio Engineering and cut the numbers in Civil Engg and Metallurgy etc that no one wants to study or pursue. We will have to address this. I know this too well as I was forced to do Civil Engg ( My Dads choice) however electrical (Light) as it was called in my days was full. After graduation so many chaps who did electronic threw it away as they did not fancy doing circuits and ended up in Insurance Busniess, Finance, IT, Body shopping in USA. One chap went back to uni and did Accounting all over after a 5 year B Tech in electronics. Chaps like these waste a seat and deny some one else the opportunity.
My suggestions :
· It would be better if the database of questions is as large as can be made. (atleast 10,000 questions per subject) It can be what ever we want.
· Point O : “Years one and two shall be general engineering and humanities” - Absolutely. I am suggesting that after 3rd year we allow students to exit if they do not wish to Continue. We Give them a D Tech ( Diploma in engineering )
The subjects in this general engineering should be purely optional. And by optional, I mean strictly optional not what we have now. Currently, during the allotment of optional courses students fill in their choice. Generally, the most opted-in subject is allotted to first few top GPA students, then as the GPA of a student falls down, the probability of getting the subject of his choice also goes down. This is not optional, this is just like the seat allotment in JEE on the basis of ranks. Now, the student with lower GPA is forced to study courses in which he has no interest and thus he gets frustrated and his academic performance degrades further. You are now talking about what happens after students join IITs. Fair enough as the entire IIT system needs an overhaul. But my alternative proposal is all about how to reduce the demand and have a fair exam for entry, and how there should be no ranks announced and all students are to be assumed to be equal.
Instead it should be like this: irrespective of the GPA of student, he/she should be allowed to study that course. If the strength crosses the batch limit, why not more than one professors take that course by dividing the students in more than one batches.
In this way all the students will study the courses of their interest and will develop their interest in desired engineering stream.
In this way all the students will study the courses of their interest and will develop their interest in desired engineering stream.
At University of technology where my son did a double degree in Business/Law`. He would have lectures say in the morning, but if something important came up and he could not attend he used to say, never mind I can attend the evening classes by the same prof most times but by another prof if necessary.
No attendance taken, students attended if they were interested and they cared. Students could also enroll for a subject and drop it if they did not like the subject or the teacher and there is no penalty.
· Point P : “Before they go to third year ……………………….attend interview where faculty get the opportunity to get the best students……………………………..”
Where personal judgment is involved, bias is involved.
And IIT professors can very easily be biased in their decisions. Students will be forced to keep a good image in front of the professor, they will grow up as “yes sir” types.....
Therefore you need to find a different method instead of this interview. How to distribute students among different streams. It is very tough because majority of the students have fixed choices.
As we say here
“Branch choose to bas Computer, Electronics, Electrical aur Mechanical wale hi karte hain, bakiyo ko to bas aise hi mil jati hai”
“Branch choose to bas Computer, Electronics, Electrical aur Mechanical wale hi karte hain, bakiyo ko to bas aise hi mil jati hai”
Everyone would like to be in the best branch, I mean most students will give priority from among these 4 branches (as seen the general trend after JEE)
My Response:
In fact I missed Point P. I know what you are saying. I am sure between all of us we can find a solution for this too.
How can a faculty member who has never taught a junior student be biased ? We can make up a selection panel where the prerequisite is that the selectors do not know the students or something like that
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Comment No 8:
Hello Rambo,
Sorry for not responding to your recommendations on JEE/IIT. I will keep my comments to your recommendations.
1. Let us scrap the B.Tech Degree in the original Five IITs altogether. Lets us instead use JEE to select students truly committed to engineering & Technology, weeding out those who just want an IIT Badge. Let the top five IITs give only Dual Degrees leading to an M.Tech lasting five years as we have now or an M Tech Hons that is of six years duration for those committed to doing Research at IITs leading to a PhD.
# - I realize dual degrees are the fad these days, but I don't quite relate to them. But going straight to an M.Tech is silly, from my perspective. An honours degree, specifying two disciplines, is better (i.e. Civil Engineering and Environment, Electronics and Business, Mechanical Engineering and Aerospace etc.). Students could be opt to and be chosen on the basis of their 1st and 2nd year performance. If IIT's were to retain the elitist image, the dual discipline could be the only way for all. I am tempted to keep Research as one option, but I doubt if many will take it.
2. If top 5 IITs offered only Dual Degrees, the number of students taking JEE will drop from 5 lakhs to may be 2 lakhs over night. This will weed out those who want to do MBA or body shopping business ( I mean Recruiters) or get into the finance sector etc
3. HRD and Kakodkar Committee are right in wanting to convert IITs into Research Hubs. What better way to do it than by selecting the right students through a fair JEE.
# - Why do you think that the best students would be keen on research? These days the best students for the most part look for the way to get rich. I doubt, if IIT's will become research hubs, unless a lot of money is poured into them by private sector/government for this purpose, not through selection of "right" students.
4. Current Multiple choice JEE is a flop and needs to be discarded immediately.
# - I agree, although we all know multiple choice is used all the time in many competitive exams.
# - I agree, although we all know multiple choice is used all the time in many competitive exams.
5. Proposed JEE Mains and JEE Advanced etc again pander to coaching schools and put IITs out of reach of poor students who may be bright. This idea has to be dumped for good.
# - Coaching schools are like weeds. they will come up despite your best efforts.
# - Coaching schools are like weeds. they will come up despite your best efforts.
6. Make JEE an On line exam that can be taken throughout the year. Limit the JEE Syllabus to CBSC syllabus. No questions should be from outside the syllabus. Create a database of all JEE questions from physics, maths and chemistry for the last 55 years. Eliminate questions that fall outside the syllabus. Ensure that all questions have one word answers that are alpha numeric that can be keyed in using a computer key board. No multiple choice. Just one answer. You either get it right or not. Student will be asked are you sure you want to lock in this answer? as in Who wants to be a Millionaire. Say yes and you move on to the next question.
a. Here is the beauty. Every student taking the exam will get a random selections of questions in physics, chemistry and maths all at the same time. Computer generated random questions taken out of the database.
b. The student will have to answer as many questions in a three hour period and the program will terminate the exam exactly after three hours from commencement.
c. There can be no cheating, no use of wifi and blue tooth technology to get answers from outsiders. Plus as every student is getting different questions all the time, there cannot be a fairer exam.
d. This system is used in some Australian universities for some exams and is also used by Road Transport Department of NSW for Driving Licence Tests.
e. At the end of the JEE exam the computer will tell the candidate how many questions were attempted in the three hours and how many were correct plus give instantly a rank, telling you how many students have taken the exam before you, and what percentage of students who took the exam are worse off than you. Example a JEE Score of say 99.5 suggests that 99.5% of students who took the same on line exam scored less than you at that point when the result is furnished. Let us call this IITAI – IIT Admission Index all Computer generated with zero scope for human error or manipulation etc as is now with JEE.
f. This rank as we can understand will keep changing on a daily basis as more and more students take the exam. It could improve and it could also get worse with time. For this reason every registered user will be allowed two attempts at the exam in a calendar year and the better result of the two locked in.
g. To make JEE fair for all students Nationally, IITs should publish the entire database of questions in all three subjects, with answers like JEE guide books. This Guide book must be sold along with application forms to apply for JEE.
h. This will allow poor students who cannot go to expensive coaching schools a fair opportunity if not equal, to have a shot at IIT through home study.
i. IIT Aspirants should also be able to take mock on line exams any number of times to boost their confidence as well as understand how it works.
j. Let us say we have 5000 questions in each subject, maths physics and chemistry, say a database of 15,000 questions in all, the software can be designed to change the numerical value of the variables in the questions, to eliminate students mugging questions and answers and regurgitating.
k. To make it even more challenging, this on Line JEE should be an OPEN Book exam with blank papers scribble pad for doing calculations. While every one believes that Open book exams are easy as you have the book to assist, referring text books in exams causes inordinate delays and slows down the student who does not know the answer and is looking up the text book for solutions.
l. This on line JEE is all about how many questions one can answer in three hours and how many one gets correct. When this new format comes into vogue, JEE Coaching schools will die off gradually even if not instantly.
m. JEE should not end here. Top 20,000 students should then take JEE Advanced which is the Original IIT JEE where students have to write answers and solve problems. This is where IIT Faculty can distinguish between true native intelligence and spoon fed reasoning. Pick the top ten thousand and allot them to IIT of Choice.
n. Here is another key ingredient that needs to be introduced into the selections process. DO NOT ANNOUNCE RANKS AND DO NOT ALLOT BRANCHES EVEN BEFORE THEY JOIN IITs. Let all the students enter IITs as equals having cleared the two step JEE. The Ranks should not be shown even to faculty members to avoid prejudices. Ranking and talk like x,y,z was rank 6 nationally etc just places a halo on the heads of young students, who ought to be taught to be humble
o. Years one and two shall be general engineering and humanities
p. Before they go to third year, students have to nominate three branch preferences from available courses and attend interview where faculty get the opportunity to get the best students who could go on to do research under them. The next two years will be grooming and polishing these rough diamonds.
q. These dual degree M.Techs coming through JEE , would beat current PhD students hands down, only because the core Ingredient came through JEE Process. These dual degree IITians and should be allowed to become Professors to teach Nationally.
r. If this is acceptable and adopted it would become easy to implement Kakodkar Committee recommendations turning IITs into Research hubs.
s. This would please the HRD Ministry, would please Senates of all IITs and would please All India IIT Faculty Federation, the alumni and the parents will not be out of pocket so much.
t. Who knows the proposal may even send students back to schools full time as Coaching schools will have very little to offer. When this happens we will get top teachers from coaching schools, opting to teach at regular schools and even in IITs.......
Before I forget, I believe that IITs should also have a dual degree in Business studies leading to an MBA catering to the demand out there. This also gives students an opportunity to not continue with engineering if they don't like to.
# - You have given a lot of thoughts to the online format. Maybe it could be implemented on the Aakash tablet :). This way, you can kill two birds with one stone.
Now for my thoughts. As I have said before, it is time for each IIT to break loose from this collective brand, and create an identity of its own. Just take the example of University of California University system. No one goes to apply to the University of California brand, rather, they opt for UC Berkeley (the best), UCLA (next rung) or the also rans. This way, one IIT (hopefully IITM) breaks loose from the pack and truly becomes a place of excellence). The IIT's can still collaborate in creating a single super entrance exam (with only marks given, not percentile), but the students will have to apply separately to each IIT, indicating their score.
Other than business (only as part of a dual degree), IIT's should not offer any other non-engineering disciplines. Only subjects will be taught, i.e. law, social sciences, literature etc, but no degrees will be given in them. The other day, I saw an Indian TV program, where the contestant introduces herself as doing her MA in English in IIT. this is quite silly.
Bottom line, my view is that we should free the IIT's (at least the original 5) from the collective brand, and give them the freedom to go solo (I don't mean private, but probably more public/private partnership).
All for now. Appreciate your energy on everything you take on, although I may not agree on everything you say and in some cases, wish you do more research before stating an opinion as fact.
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Comment No : 9
I read your proposal. It is a radical thought to combine B.Tech with M.Tech. I am not sure how it will be accepted by the authorities. People work towards Empire Building cashing in on IIT Brand, forgetting the main objectives of IITs Even Prof. Ananth wanted to add Medical course in IITM which I think is a deviation from the vision of founders of IITs..
I also feel it will be good if Alumni of IITs can promote founding of one new institution with 5 year B.Tech Course purely engg based with focus on aptitude and intelligence right from selection of students and faculty and designing courses oriented towards industrial needs. Just like in the case of House Surgeon, add research Project from Industry for additional year if necessary on optional basis .The Alumni of such institute will become outstanding technologists scientists and scholars.It will be a rebirth of original IIT in a better form.
I will write more on your proposal on my return.
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Comment no: 10
I have read 1 & 9. Excellent! Only detail I would change:
CBSE as the standard ------> The best school standards world wide (CBSE is lame duck, this will also be an impetus to CBSE to improve their standards).
Will get back to you after reading the rest.
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Comment No : 11
Unfortunately, this will not work. Whatever method of selection we
choose, there are sufficient number of students who will never clear the
M.Tech degree. All the senates are uniform in handling this situation:
give B.Tech degrees to these students and clear them. Then many
students stop failing, because they want only the B.Tech degree and do
not care for the M.Tech degree.
It is the 1% selection process to a stratospheric degree that is the
cause of the whole problem. Either the percentage should be increased
(by starting many more IITs) or the IIT brand should come down to
realistic levels. Either way, the IIT brand is doomed. Until then,
subjecting the twelve year old children to the cruelty of preparing for
IIT JEE will continue.
My Response: I understand what you are saying and trying to find a way around the stratospheric problem
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Comment No: 12
Thanks for including me in this list. I am not as well informed about this issue as others you may have included to obtain input. But, let me share my general views on this matter based on limited input from faculty and students at IITB (in June 2012) and IITD (a few years ago), and IITM during my 2008 or 2009 visit to campus.
With regard to your note (http://ramboskeyboard.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/summary.html) it is far too prescriptive, and parts of it rings like the American MCAT (admission to Medical College Exams). For Medical School admissions the final evaluation is subjective made by a person and then by a group of people; this includes undergraduate grades, recommendation letters, extra-curricular activities, MCAT test and other subjective evaluations. To believe a single test can evaluate the potential of that person is simply silly. Folks in India, of course, think otherwise… they believe a single test can rank students capabilities. At MIT which receives over 12,000 applications for 800 seats, every one of the application materials (grades in high school, three student essays, SAT, AP test scores are read by a large group of staff individually; it is an enormous task, but that is how it is done for selecting quality applicants.)
Faculty is not happy with the type of students entering into the IITs. Outwardly they say that they are good in solving defined problems. A very senior faculty in administrative ranks made a remark that many of IITM undergraduate students cannot write or speak English correctly. He went onto say that they are so used to the coaching classes that they are unable to learn from traditionally delivered lectures where concepts are emphasized and not methods of solving text book problems. To what extent this is true, I do not know. I do know from limited data on IITM students who entered our PhD programs; they had decent grades, but failed our qualifying exams and we advised them to leave the program. Similar mid-rank students from the old AC Tech have done quite well. In fact our polymer faculty prefers students from AC Tech as they seem to have been well groomed. We don’t take in IITM students who are in the middle of the class ranking into our PhD program. The top is still very good, I might add. I have heard similar stories from faculty colleagues at other universities.
So, there has been a general complaint that JEE is not able to select students as they did earlier. I did not pay attention to this until a few years ago when I learnt that JEE does not have English/composition as one of the exam papers and that the entire exam could be taken in Hindi. To, me that explained a great deal. I believe teaching an engineer who has not developed the other side of the brain is an absolute waste. I could not believe that JEE had deteriorated to such an extent that language and arts are not given some level of footing in evaluation. I would like see this restored – politically this would be tough fight. To me to be able to read and write a language is an absolute essential for becoming an engineer.
Think about why JEE is instituted. It is to rationally select a limited number from a very large pool of aspiring students. Because GoI has made heavy investments they want this privilege to go to those who deserve while balancing with the political will of the country of developing its human resources and opening opportunities to the underprivileged. This in fact is at the intersection of public policy (ministers) balanced against academic merit (IIT faculty). It is well established that students from upper-middle class are better mentored ( true in the US as well, 2 out of 3 Freshman at Harvard is son of an alumnus of Harvard) and do well in the college-entrance-exam (SAT in the US). Harvard (private and liberal) works hard to open its admission to the others through financial aid, and consideration of other factors (they told tell us what these exactly are; admission essays have been given some significant weight in some cases).
Now to the nitty-gritty. If IITs are not public institutions then we could readily dismiss the minister’s input. It is owned by the GoI, and therefore the IIT faculty are obligated to meet midway (I see this in the words of a few Directors of IITs) with the political wishes, they cannot remain adamant on their own values. You probably know the following well – when the reservation stuff came to the fore, the Directors accommodated it by increasing the number of seats without compromising on the number of merit-based admissions. It is a decent compromise where we have academic core value is preserved while satisfying the political will of the country. [You might say this hurts the “brand”, it might be, but the cause is to have access to education for the talented students. Implementing the 50% increase will not be easy. I have heard one faculty beat his chest saying, if they don’t measure up, they will fail or commit suicide! I was appalled to see that attitude; then again one should not be surprised in an elitist society, so pervasive in India. BTW, the increase in numbers is just beginning to take place, the current high suicide has nothing to do with what I describe here]
So, in summary I support a rework of JEE in the new computer-based format you suggest with the following revisions-
· Sample tests will be distributed, but the entire set of problems will not be published. Each student will get a randomly selected problem set of increasing complexity with answers graded by computer. That is the test will be dynamic to explore the maximum capability of the student. MCAT is organized that way.
· If the computer-based tests can be administered multiple times in a year – suggest four/year, then we don’t have to limit it to students who score well in the board.
· New JEE must have language part- including comprehension and essay. Former would be multiple choice but the latter would have to be hand-graded.
My Comments:
Welcome aboard. Your views and assumptions are no different from mine. I get the feeing that you have not read the document and solution offered thoroughly.
Faculty say a lot of things and blame JEE Coaching schools for everything.
The main reasons for students doing poorly in 1st and 2nd years is because JEE can be taken in many languages and in IITs medium of instruction is English. Even today I remember DLN Sastrys struggle in IITM as he came from a Telugu medium schools and had problem writing and speaking English. He topped Aero in the end and now is in UK and used to work for British Airspace what ever.
The second cause for the high failure rate is Reservations these kids are being crucified on campus and even treated like Pariahs and general category students treat them as untouchables. They even have different coloured Library cards and no one wants to sc st student in his project group etc.
My solution is aimed at reducing the DEMAND and cutting down the number of students wanting to sit for JEE, weeding out the ones who are not interested in Engineering but are after an IIT Badge. This is why I like Kannans idea of scrapping B Tech Degree in top 5 IITs. Just have dual degrees. In our days we did 5 year B tech and 2 year M tech which is seven years. These days they have a Five year M Tech which is Bull. They are trying to inclrease the number of PGs to meet national demand by reducing the course content and duration.
Plus HRD wants to make IITs Research Hubs. This is not happening because the quality of students doing M Tech and PhDs are the left overs from IITs and NITs who cannot find suitable jobs.
We have a team of 25 concerned IITians who are all sending feed back to my basic proposal and the intent is for this team of IITians to come up with a Proposal that addresses all issues , like cutting demand, creating an online exam that wipes out Coaching schools and selecting students with some aptitude for engineering technology so IITs go on to become Hubs of Research in 50 years time.
Come aboard and we will all put our heads to gether and come up with a proper solution which is not a compromise.
As for IIT Directors trust me they are all scared men and will never stand up to a Minister. That is India.
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Comment No : 13
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Comment No: 14
I went through your paper.
I agree with about 80% of suggestions as desirable. Almost all suggestion that you make come amongst IIT faculty over the last five years and have been discussed. The key is to build consensus amongst IIT faculty -- not just in one IIT, but at least across 7 IITs. That requires work; and is not doable.
For example, the idea of not taking students in department when they enter IIT was suggested by IIT madras about 6 years ago. Three other IITs were dead opposed. It did not fly.
So Ram, it is not about idea, but about building consensus. That needs deep engagement, not with a few, but with a whole lot. If you are prepared to do it, you need to find ways to do it.
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Comment No: 15
Ram, I think that it is high time you make this proposal public. Not that it will find acceptance immediately but the seed will be planted somewhere and it may finally get accepted. It is worrisome to find so many IITians going off tangent from an engineering career. So much of money and effort goes to prepare them as a metallurgist or a chemical engineer and they go off into banking or something else. There will be a time soon when the people (parliamentarians) start questioning the justification for the IITs to offer anything but just a general degree in Engineering instead of degrees in so many specializations.
Comment No: 15
Ram, I think that it is high time you make this proposal public. Not that it will find acceptance immediately but the seed will be planted somewhere and it may finally get accepted. It is worrisome to find so many IITians going off tangent from an engineering career. So much of money and effort goes to prepare them as a metallurgist or a chemical engineer and they go off into banking or something else. There will be a time soon when the people (parliamentarians) start questioning the justification for the IITs to offer anything but just a general degree in Engineering instead of degrees in so many specializations.
Just two points: the formula for normalizing scores of different boards was by ISI and not IISc. And do check up all other points mentioned by you in the light of recent decisions.
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Comment No: 16
Comment No: 16
Informative and illumining piece indeed. More than an article it can be transformed into a book.
The role of MMJ was really startling. In fact I had met him once in 2005 and found his extreme arrogance. A Allahabad University product product and professor just can't appreciate the dynamism of an IIT ecosystem.
I think that the treatment to coachings could have been widened as these centres of non-institutional academia have brought out a significant influx of quality in class 11& 12 science education.
Let there be a nation wide contest of the best teachers in physics, chemistry and mathematics the teachers at the coachings would come at the top.
The best of the breed coaching might look like cram schools for the bulk of journalist community and the political bureaucratic combine as they probably can't withstand the rigor and depth of treatment given to various topics out there.
They don't need the aristocratic tag of an elitist global school, the big brands where you can enter only by dint of your parentage and not by your merit.
As far as rural talent making it to IITs is concerned, I can cite at least a dozen examples of students making it to IITs because of the support given by the coachings.
As far as the question of fee is concerned, IIT fee has been raised inordinately all these years. The coachings match up somewhere to the annual IIT fee...It's a market driven phenomenon to bring and retain the best talent.
Innovation and creativity builds on sound academic foundations. The students entering IIT have those foundations but they are not able to leverage it for other reasons.
Unfortunately the quality and deliverables at IIT suffer due to the lack of a national vision. IITs are seen more as a launchpad for greener pastures.
The middle class mindset need to be fuelled by a nationalistic fervour to use their technological prowess.
Why would a government expect all from a young IITian to innovate in the dirt and mediocrity of its so-called welfare ridden institutions where there is little regard to merit, iconoclastic thought and inevitably innovation.
When the minister with an explicit aristocratic mindset expects the directors of IITs to be the poodles of his opinion, would he be able to appreciate the intellectual ingenuity of the now 10k IITians moving out of these institutions.
IITians have therefore reduced in creating world class professionals and have not been able to become world class institutions themselves.
Institution building has got an entirely different dynamics altogether which has to be conducively married to other national priorities.
A leadership has to be emerge for this to happen.
You pose a challenge, fuel it with adequate resources, do away with sycophancy. You would have transformed IITs into world class institutions themselves.
You don't have a challenge because you believe in buying all your core technologies as this enables handsome kick backs.
Nobody even knows the depth of your patriotic intents which seem to be all influenced and compromised at the behest of geo-political outreach programmes.
The rise of India powered by her impeccable ingenious and innovative institutions is not in the interests of the defending global powers.
Last but not the least, if Indian National Movement Part 1 was spearheaded by a battery of England educated lawyers; Indian National Movement Part 2 would have a significant contribution from the alumni of IITs who have undergone a tremendous intense inner transformation.
The minister is doing nothing but toeing his political brief to reign in the rise of an intellectual class having a global footprint and enough financial prowess which can challenge the legitimacy of the existing order which is holding back the spirit of India.
I think the real argument is this which should not be missed in the quagmire of technicalities and legal smartness.
IIT council is nothing but a protege, an extension of the ministerial mind.
